Kozy with Chloe

Dating Differently: Neurospicy

• Chloe Gray • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this episode of Kozy with Chloe, Chloe and K open up about the highs, lows, and hilarious moments of their relationship as a neurotypical therapist and a neurodivergent CEO. They dive into K’s journey with ASD—from getting diagnosed, to reshaping his life into one that fully fits his unique needs and strengths. With Chloe’s insights and K’s no-nonsense logic, they tackle what it’s like to navigate love, business, and the world around them in a way that works for them. It’s a real, funny, and heartfelt look at how K made his neurodivergence a true asset in his life. 



Chloe:

Hey guys, before we jump into the first episode of Cozy with Chloe. I want to take a few minutes to introduce myself. I'm Chloe. I'm a clinical social worker, a therapist, and a dating consultant. I'm also the owner of Advice by Chloe, which is a business that teaches people how to use dating apps, have successful relationships, and learn communication skills. I started my business when I had lost my job. I was on the brink of homelessness, and I made a post to Reddit offering to pimp out people's dating profiles for just five dollars an hour. It instantly went viral and turned into a full blown business within a couple of days. Fast forward four years and here we are. So if you're into dating psychology, human behavior, you've always wanted to know how the algorithms on dating apps work, or if you have questions about what a healthy relationship looks like, or how to identify an unhealthy one, then you have found the right place. You can expect lots of laughs, banter, expert advice, and relatable stories as we explore what it takes to find meaningful connections in this world. So I'm really excited that you've joined us and I'm even more excited to introduce you to my partner and my boyfriend, Kay. Kay, do you want to introduce yourself?

K:

Hey guys, I'm K. I'm 40 years old. I was a professional gambler and I did quite well at that. I retired early. I tried out different things. I traveled the world for a bit. I had a lot of time trying to figure things out. It was just very unfulfilling for me. I read a book on entrepreneurship through acquisition. I wanted to Something else. And so I got into the healthcare field. I bought a few facilities and over the course of the last five to seven years, I've been growing and expanding that business. And that's a little bit about me.

Chloe:

So, before we get into your personal experience with ASD, I want us to talk about what it is, because I feel like a lot of people don't quite understand it. So, ASD is a diagnosis in the DSM 5, and it stands for Autism Spectrum Disorder. Now, when I say that, what most people envision is a spectrum of one through a hundred, and then different people fall in different places on the spectrum. So basically, like, how serious is your autism? And that isn't really how it works. It's a lot closer to, like, like a D& D character sheet, right? Where you have your charisma score and you have your strength score or your constitution, or maybe you play video games and you are leveling up certain skills. And then each one of those things has their own spectrum. And those together make up your character. So with autism, you have a specific spectrum for communication challenges, one for sensory issues, one for cognitive differences, and they come together to create who you are. And so you can have a thousand people in a room with ASD and their ASD will present very differently. And the needs that they have will be quite different, and the way that they express themselves and their challenges are quite different. So when we talk about the spectrum, we're really using an incredibly vague term that doesn't have a whole lot of meaning when it comes to practicality. So with Kay, I, I want to hear more about what like your particular, I think you like to call it your, your flavor of autism.

K:

Sure. Yeah, I do. Um, my flavor of autism for me, the, the two main things that come to mind are, um, I don't know, you think I've. Sensory things. I think my sensory is just like kind of, I think I, I have a strong sense of smell, which I don't think is part of this, but the, the loud noises and lights, it doesn't cripple me, but I just don't like it. Like concerts are where there's too many flashing lights and they're just being really loud and the crowds I can be there, you know, I don't, I don't. I guess if you had to put me on, on the, the score rating, the, the one to 10, probably like a three or or four on it. Like, it annoys me. It drains me, but I can do it with, uh, with smells. Mm-Hmm., uh, . I, I have a strong sense of smell. I don't think this is an a SD thing. Well,

Chloe:

KI

K:

mean, well, I, I don't think, okay. You've, you think it affects me? I feel like more. that it does. I mean, I have a strong sense of smell. It's a strong palate. Okay. I, I, like I, you, you smell people, right? Like I, I think, I mean, there's some particularly smelly people at the gym. I don't know if that's a sensory issue or maybe there's just some smelly people at the gym. It's also at restaurants, baby. You shouldn't wear a lot of cologne at a restaurant. It just, it just ruins the experience.

Chloe:

If we're in a restaurant and someone four tables down has on strong cologne, K is unable to eat because of the smell.

K:

It's just false. First of all, cologne Is not strong or weak. They have different classifications of it, actually, but it's not about the, the strength of the cologne. It's about how much they've applied. If someone

Chloe:

has applied a tremendous, like a higher than average amount of cologne, four tables over.

K:

So. I want to make my point here. Okay, is a hawk autistic? Because it can, it can see a long distance, right? It's, I'm not more sense, it's, it's not that it bothers me more. I just sense it and you don't.

Chloe:

It's not that it's the waitress who's overwhelming you with the mist of cologne. It is someone. Any

K:

proper waitress would never wear, wear cologne.

Chloe:

Of course, what I mean is that if there is a couple, four or five tables down who is wearing a lot of cologne, it will ruin your meal. You will not be able to enjoy your food. It is a ruin the entire experience for you. So,

K:

so is, is the question, is it, am I more sensitive to it or do you not even smell it because my nose is, has superpowers stronger than yours?

Chloe:

I. I usually smell it, but I either find it vaguely annoying, or when it's as far away As they were, it just doesn't bother me at all.

K:

You know, when I was in high school and I wrestled, I could identify whose headgear was whose soft, the smell of the sweat. Is that autistic? Yeah. How was that autistic? Is autism a superpower now?

Chloe:

Yeah. I mean, you, you would definitely like to call it your superpower and there are definitely elements of, of it that like really enhance your life, right? Like you, you have the ability to do things and be successful with things that I just really struggle with. Right.

K:

Truly don't understand this. So as a chef. autistic because they taste better?

Chloe:

No, a chef has trained like for a long amount of time to curate their palate, right? I mean, it doesn't really matter whether it's autistic or not, right? But the way that you experience different sensory things, the way that you experience taste, the way that you experience smell, the way that you experience sound. These are uncommon, right? Like I don't even notice sometimes or when I do, I'm like, yeah, I smell it. It's vaguely annoying, but for you, it's no exaggeration that your meal is ruined. You cannot enjoy it anymore. You're upset. It has a negative impact on your life. And that

K:

Smell affects taste.

Chloe:

I understand what I'm saying is that your smell is, the way that it affects you is intense to a level that it impacts your ability to enjoy going out to eat, right? And that, that isn't a common trait in neurotypical people. It is a very common trait in people who are on the spectrum. Whether it's that you were more sensitive to it, or that your nose is stronger, or some combination of both, it affects you in the way that it affects a lot of people who are also on the spectrum. It's All

K:

those autistic chefs and perfume tasters, you see them all the time.

Chloe:

Perfume tasters.

K:

Perfume smell testers.

Chloe:

You being a perfume tester would just be like your version of absolute hell.

K:

You know, what we're going to do is we're going to throw a wet blanket on you and we're going to chant around you in a circle and call you Normie.

Chloe:

Why is the blanket wet? Just like to make me suffer.

K:

Yeah. Also, cause you're a wet blanket.

Chloe:

You're a wet blanket. Well, maybe we should talk about the, the executive functioning stuff.

K:

Oh yeah. I forget about that. Cause it's not, it's so kind of like hidden in me. I didn't even realize it was a thing up until fairly recently, but that just, it, it affects me tremendously, especially in my business. And I had learned to adjust, which I didn't even know I was doing it. I basically, I cannot organize and I it's hard for me to stay on task. If I have other stimuli when I'm trying to organize and specifically how it happens in the course of my businesses, if while I'm working, if I have a new tasks come in, my brain just starts a short circuit as I try and organize them in order of priority and. I'll just start going all over the place. I ended up getting nothing done. And this isn't how normal people operate, but it just feels so natural to me. And it, like, it's, it's not obvious where, you know, like I'm at the concert and I see the lights are there and I'm being affected by it. I find a very, like, it bothers me and it doesn't bother other people. This is. more in internal thought process.

Chloe:

So that's how it affects your work. How has ASD affected your, your relationships?

K:

Now that you, you, you mentioned it, I, my exes didn't really, they didn't really talk about, we didn't really talk about feelings that, that much. I guess, I mean, we, we did occasionally and obviously it was. Uh, not very enjoyable for me, but, you know, the issues I had in, in my previous relationships, they never really got very good results talking about their feelings with me, which makes me a bad boyfriend, I guess, but.

Chloe:

You're not a bad boyfriend.

K:

Not to you. Uh, but.

Chloe:

Well, I mean, you also are older now and you learned how to talk about your feelings. You're. Really good at that. I mean, you weren't, when we first started dating, but that's something that you do quite well.

K:

Yeah. Well, you know, that's both learning. That's me getting older and learning. That's also you teaching me right. Having healthy communication, understanding what both of our needs are. And, you know, in my. Prior relationships. It's I'm not laying, if there's blame on anyone, it'd be on me. Well, I guess the biggest issue is that I didn't know I was autistic and that really kind of opens the door to. Understanding like why some of these things are happening. And when I can read about, Hey, this is how autistic people are. That all of a sudden it was like a light bulb for me. Like the, the initial reason why I started going to therapy who diagnosed me with this was that, you know, I would have bouts of depression and I was trying to figure out why am I depressed? Like what is causing my depression? I started tracking everything. That's part of why we get along is we're both data people. Right. So I was tracking. All sorts of data points. I'm like, okay, what am I eating? Right. Is it sunny outside? Do I have seasonal affective disorder? You know, is it a certain time of the month? Is it cause I'm working out or not? And I could not figure out what is causing my depression. There was nothing seemed to, to, to be like in like making it happen. And so. Um, after I got my diagnosis and, you know, I was working with my therapist for a while and like thinking about it, I learned about masking, right? Like I, I didn't know what masking was a thing. I, I didn't like the, I, I knew, I guess I didn't know I was doing it either. Knowing that I was different and trying to act. Like how other people were acting or trying to change my thought process to fit their thought processes. The act of doing that is so draining for me that when I do it for extended periods of time. It makes me depressed. I wouldn't have come to that conclusion on my own. And once I realized there was a term for it and that this is something that autistic people do and that something that I was doing, then, you know, it just made it's, you know, I was, after I would interact a lot with people, I'd be depressed for a number of days. And, you know, just, just knowing that just having the knowledge that, Hey, you're autistic, Hey, like this is. This is something that, that drains your, your energy knowing that helps me manage it. Now, I can, if I, if I don't want to be depressed, I can limit my, my social interactions.

Chloe:

When you haven't talked to people in a while, do you ever get to a place where you crave social interactions?

K:

So, yeah, yes and no, it's a weird juxtaposition and, and I think I'm kind of, from, from what I've seen, I'm kind of unique here where. Other autistic people seem to really crave connections and interactions with people. I, I, I don't, I'm, I'm quite happy just being by myself and not interacting with people. However, there is also something weird where I don't know my own feelings, but if I don't interact with people for a period of time, even though I think that I'm fine and I'm happy, I do start getting depressed. It's almost as if there's something. Either subconscious or physical about me that needs interaction with people.

Chloe:

Yeah, I definitely noticed that. Not, not just like through data, but like with you, right? Like after a few days of you not leaving the house, you'll say things like, my belly hurts, right? Or I have a bellyache. That's like, I think I'm getting sick. And I'm like, well, baby, do you think maybe you're sad? No, I just want pizza.

K:

So do you think that's me not recognizing my feelings or that's

Chloe:

Well, you and I have talked about this a lot, right, because you, you were convinced that you have found a secret code through ASD to where you can bypass your feelings and that you can decide not to feel them and then just not feel them. But what I see from you is that you are experiencing these feelings, but you are either not able to recognize them or don't feel ready to recognize them. I'm not sure. What it is, but I will be able to see that something is wrong. Like there have been so many times where before I learned how to better communicate with you, I would just nag you like, what's wrong, what's wrong? Like, tell me what's wrong. Why won't you talk with me? Like, I can tell that something is wrong. You're like, well, I'm fine. And then two days later, you'd be like, My belly hurts. I think, I think I might be getting depressed and I would just bite my tongue so hard, right? Like, Oh, really?

K:

Well, if only they knew you don't bite your tongue. You say, I told you I

Chloe:

bite my tongue so much, but you know, you'll just start to behave differently. You are less engaging. You start to shut down. I can tell that something is wrong. And there's usually a a few days between where I start to notice that something is off and you start to notice that something is off. I don't think that you found a way to bypass your feelings. I think that you either don't recognize that you're having them until they become a little bit more intense or maybe you articulate them differently, because with you, it's usually somatic stuff, right? Like, my stomach hurts. I have a headache. I'm really tired. You know, I'm, I'm hungry all the time, and I don't know why. And so he will express those things, and then after that will come the feelings that you recognize as, as depression.

K:

Well, my stomach hurts, hurts because I eat. Bad foods.

Chloe:

Right, but you will order a pizza at 11 p. m. and then a milkshake and then cookies. And you only do that when you're sad.

K:

That's true.

Chloe:

Well, let's talk about your past relationships because one of the big things that you struggled with was not being able to spend a lot of time with them before you needed breaks. And I think that's something a lot of people struggle with. I'd like you to tell us more about that.

K:

So, you know, you, you start off when you're meeting someone and it's, you go through the rituals, right? And you it's, everyone's putting on their best face and you have to be really careful with what parts of yourself you show them. Again, not because it's bad or the, but this is just what's. expected. And if you break these social norms, then no one likes it. And I think this is also part of what's so hard to understand when you're autistic is that, you know, you're like, well, this is the truth, right? Everyone thinks this way. Everyone hates screaming babies. Why can't I say I hate that screaming baby? Right? Like everyone's thinking the same thing. So why are they looking at me that way when I just say it out loud? Right. Doesn't make any sense, but it's just, that's just how it is. And so when you're going through the initial dates and then you slowly start to open up yourself more and more to them and like being your, your real self, right, everyone does this. This isn't just autistic people. This is autistic people. This is neurotypicals as well. So, but for, for me, it's. I always had to hide or, um, I couldn't fully really be myself. I still had to always be watching them and making sure that I didn't do certain things. I would have to mask at, at different levels for different people. As you get into the later stages of the relationship, as you get closer, everyone opens more and more. But for me, I, there was always. Parts of myself that I had to, you know, always be consciously thinking of and different autistic people, everyone, everyone's brain functions differently. This is my experience. Other people's experiences may vary when I'm focused. When my attention is on something, I mask pretty well. I can read people to a decent extent, but as I get tired, as I get stressed, as my focus. If I'm not paying attention, if I'm working and someone talks to me, my, my masking deteriorates significantly. And it's a conscious effort for me while for a neuro typical person, this is just something that they do. It's like walking, walking and breathing for me. I have to think about. Every breath that I take, I have to be looking at her and seeing, Hey, what is her emotional state right now? And that's, that's a thought that goes into my head. I have to focus on it. If I'm not focused on it, potentially stuff happens like they get angry. Right. Or they get upset. And if I'm not paying attention, that causes problems. I'm never allowed to fully relax, but with, with us, it's never been like that. I'm, I'm comfortable doing. And being myself, the, what I feel the core of myself, I can be true to that.

Chloe:

It makes me really, really happy that you're able to be yourself with me. And I, I try really hard to understand. Your perspective and your side of things to make sure that I'm not Kind of forcing you into a corner where you have to mask right because I don't I don't want a relationship to ever feel like a chore. I have an idea of how we got to this place But i'd i'd like to hear your thoughts like what's different. Was it us? Was it you? Was it me? Was it some combination of all three?

K:

I want to hear your thoughts on this too, but I mean I was comfortable with you You From day one.

Chloe:

I felt really comfortable with you, but that first year was really hard Actually before we talk about the first year, we should probably tell people how we met right? Do you want me to do it or do you want to do it?

K:

No, you go ahead. You do a better job

Chloe:

Kay and I met at a mental health conference, and we met at this shady little buffet table that had like this oyster bar, and I've never been a seafood person, I never liked seafood, I had oysters once when I was a kid, I really wanted to try one again to see if I liked them as an adult. And there was only one left and it looked a little bit suspicious.

K:

It was fully submerged under melted ice, underwater.

Chloe:

You really didn't need to call me out like that, but it was, it was pretty gross. And you, you walked up next to me and I looked at you. And I was like, do you, do you think I should go for it? Do you think I should eat it? And you were like, uh, no, you, you should not eat that. And I said, I'm going to, and I ate it. And while I deeply regretted that later, we just kind of started chatting and we ended up at the dessert table and we're just trying different desserts and rating them, and it was just like a 10 minute conversation. But I remember really liking you. I had to go to a workshop, and I wasn't really sure if you were interested in me, or what was going to happen. And then you gave me a very smooth line. Do you remember what it was?

K:

Who's the autistic one? You weren't sure if I was interested in you? I remember. That was very charming. So smooth. I said, so if I wanted to discuss the systemic issues with mental health in America, how would I get ahold of you?

Chloe:

And I gave him my phone number and You called and we actually talked about these systemic issues with mental health care in the United States. And you listened to me go on a rant about it for like two hours. And then we talked again and again and again and there was just like this little click. Like something just worked and that started what I call the year of misunderstandings where we really liked each other but constantly misunderstood each other. I go into more detail on this on a blog I wrote called How I Found Love on the Spectrum which is actually why I decided to start this podcast because we got so many messages from people who really related to but our first year was really, really hard. We really misunderstood. What the other person wanted, so I was convinced that you had no interest in the serious relationship with me. Yeah,

K:

why I, you know, I can see how that could happen when I'm calling you every week and day and asking you to come see me. I can see how you could be confused. Well, you could be like,

Chloe:

Hey, I have the poker tournament and, and the city. Do you, do you want to fly out and be with me? It sounded like you were asking me to be a prostitute for you.

K:

And

Chloe:

so I was like, I am, I think I actually told you I'm not interested in being your hooker, which you thought was very funny, but I had just gotten out of a really, Uh, difficult breakup. I had a lot of turmoil in my family. I was just not in a good place. And my primary goal was to not get my heart broken. And I liked you. I liked you a lot. And I liked you instantly. And I was very, very scared of getting hurt because you lived across the country. Your lifestyle was completely different than mine. And I was like, best case scenario. I'm going to have to give up my whole life to move across the world to be with this man. And then we're going to break up in a year. And that's just not something I'm willing to do. And I tried to talk to you about it. And I would say like, Hey, what, what are we doing? Because you live, In another state, and I live here and I don't wanna move and you don't wanna move. So what, what are we doing? Like, what is gonna happen? And your response would be like, let's just figure it out. Let's have a weekend in New York. I'll get us a hotel. like, this man is not serious

K:

about me. one, one. That's not what I said. Uh, and two, I don't know if this is a, a neurotypical thing or, or, or a Chloe thing, but you know, you're like, okay. Uh, I don't know if, you know, how are we going to name our children? Like, this isn't going to, it's like, okay, can we, can we go on a first date first? And then, then maybe decide?

Chloe:

I said nothing about children at that point. Okay. It was, what is this going to be? Right? Like, what are your intentions with me?

K:

What if I'm really sick? And you have a really important business meeting. Would you spend the night with me or would you go stay in a hotel? What would you do?

Chloe:

You started that conversation, K. You did. You did. I, I was sick. Actually, I think I had COVID. And you were like, Hey, so if you were here and you had COVID, You would be okay if I just left and stayed at a hotel while you're sick, right?

K:

I don't think that's what happened. It

Chloe:

was very similar and I was very offended and you're like you want me to get sick with you and I was like no But I want you to want to get sick with me.

K:

Yeah, so you wanted me to say I would get sick with you, but not actually make me do it.

Chloe:

Yeah, I would have never let you do it. It's like, I would have made you leave, but I wanted to have to make you do it. I wanted you to insist that you take care of me. That

K:

makes a lot of sense.

Chloe:

I agree, it does. Or, if we were going camping and there was a bear, would you save me? And, no.

K:

Attempt to save you from a grizzly bear that had you in its jaws. I was actively mauling you. With my bear hands.

Chloe:

I, no, I said, what if you had a gun? And you said a gun won't do anything with a grizzly bear.

K:

Yeah, that's true.

Chloe:

And then you were confused about why I didn't want to go camping anymore. The truth is, if you've been dating a guy for three months, and you guys go camping, and a grizzly bear shows up, he is not going to die for you. I, I feel strongly that

K:

like, Not even, you want me just to die with you?

Chloe:

Sure. He won't die trying to save you and you both die together. Like 95 percent of people, they're going to escape as you're being eaten, right? But people, women, especially, we want you to pretend that you would save us. That is what we want. I wanted you to pretend. I wanted you to be like, I would never leave you.

K:

You want me to pretend. And then you wanted to say, no, you should leave me.

Chloe:

Yeah, and then I wanted you to argue. Never. You couldn't make me leave you. I would stay with you. And it's all a lie. And it's all a lie. That is what I wanted. And that's what most neurotypical women want. So what we've

K:

learned today is that neurotypicals are liars.

Chloe:

Yes, that's literally, I mean, we follow these invisible social rules, right, that a lot of neurodivergent people just don't follow. Don't. And so what's interesting is, and something that I've really valued about our relationship, is the things that most people perceive about you that they think are incredibly rude, I just really love because you don't lie to me. You really don't. Even when we're talking about something and you know, that what you were going to say next is going to upset me. I watch you inwardly cringe. I watch you prepare to upset me, and then you tell me the truth. Oftentimes I don't like the honesty, but I've learned to appreciate the fact that everyone feels exactly the same way. They just lie. You would talk to me about it for an hour, and I would just be suffering through it because I just, like, I'm proud of you, and I'm really excited for you, but the intricacies of how real estate law works is just not an interest of mine, and I would pretend to be interested because that's what I was taught you're supposed to do, and then after you finish talking, I will start going on about critical role or about something that I care about that you're not interested in and I can see you not paying attention to me, and I would get so hurt and so angry and the hypocrisy of me being angry that you didn't do a good enough job of pretending to be interested in what I had to say when I had just finished pretending to be interested in what you had to say. Really. struck me when I realized it, right? Because it's, it's, it's this really insane expectation, but because it just feels normal, but it's, it's not.

K:

Yeah. I mean, it's much better when it's done my way, where I don't know you're not listening and I don't care. I just want to talk.

Chloe:

You do do that. Like sometimes he will even tell me, I know you don't care about this, but I need to tell you about it. And then I will listen and, and I won't care and I'll barely pay attention. And he's just perfectly happy with that. You can be talking to me about something and I'm allowed to say, Hey, I can give you five more minutes. And usually you're just completely okay with that. You aren't insulted, you don't pout, you like understand that I'm not that interested and you don't equate that to how much I love you, like it's taken me some time to reach a place where I don't feel hurt when you aren't interested in what I have to say, but it's really freeing, right? To, to just be able to be like, Hey. I'm bored by this conversation and you're just, you're just allowed to say it out loud. It feels, it feels like walking into a grocery store and like throwing produce across the store. It feels like this crazy thing that like you're not supposed to be allowed to do.

K:

Yeah, it's nice. I feel comfortable with you. I feel happy with you. We have a lot in common and not everything in common. There are a lot of things that we don't share, but I feel like the important aspects, you know, the parts that make a person, a person, you know, our, our spirits are identical in that sense. And I feel like I can be myself. With you and that doesn't mean that you know, I say whatever I want and do whatever I want all the time there are definitely things that i've had to adjust and change about myself, but those things that I Adjusted are not things that are important about me. They're not they're not core to to who I am I just never get sick of you. I always just want More and more now, however long it's been three years, four years, I still, I'm never tired of it. I never want to be away from you. So I think parts of what you're saying here are misleading. Not, not that you're just overall. I think the picture that we're presenting is that, you know, your, This wonderful woman who was accepted an autistic man, which it's true. You are, you are a wonderful woman who has accepted autistic man. This isn't that I found a woman who accepts me as I am. You know, it's, it's both right.

Chloe:

Well, you're also not baggage. I have to lug around, like, I don't consider myself the superhero

K:

that I'm

Chloe:

with you. Like you were, you were wonderful.

K:

What I want to talk about is what other. What the autistic people listening, what they can do, right? Because right now, what I think it portraying is you got to find a woman who just accepts you.

Chloe:

Yeah. Right.

K:

Which I don't think is very good advice.

Chloe:

No, it's, it's, I think it's a few things, right? I think it's you tried really hard and I, and also I, I met you in the middle. We're really happy now, but that isn't how we started. So let's, let's talk about how we got there because I, it was largely just, we, we worked really hard, right? Like I worked to understand you and you worked to understand me.

K:

Yeah, after we would argue, once we had both calmed down, we would talk about it and just kind of workshop it, right? Like what went wrong? What can we do differently? And slowly over time, we adjusted and got better and better and it's not perfect still, but it's in a good spot and a lot better than it was at the beginning.

Chloe:

Yeah, so for us, what worked is. K needs breaks.

K:

For me, I have an emotional battery. I have a social battery. And there's only so much I can take. And at a certain point, I I just can't take it anymore. It doesn't matter what it is. I just cannot take it anymore. Cannot talk about emotions. I cannot listen to emotions. And once I reached that point, I need some time to recover. We, we made a rule, not really even a rule, but we just communicate an agreement. We just communicate where if I say, Hey, I need a break, we take a break. And we, I, we, we try and. Condense our, our arguments as much as we can.

Chloe:

And then we created guidelines for the break because our brains function very differently. So he needs breaks, but what I need is to know when that break is going to end, right? Because if he says I need a break in two days, go by. And we don't bring it up again. I feel really hurt. So the agreement is that when he takes a break, it is his responsibility to bring it back up and that he will do it within 48 hours. And I think that's been very good for us because it used to be that he would hit his limit and he would say he wanted a break. And I interpreted that as him trying to end the conversation. And so then I would get. really hurt and really frustrated because it felt like he, he just didn't want to talk about it anymore. Which, I mean, he would also say, I don't want to talk about this anymore, right? I can't do this anymore. You have to stop. I'm very

K:

happy burying feelings. That's my favorite place where they go.

Chloe:

And the argument would not be resolved, even close to resolved. And then two days later, it'd be like, hey, You never brought this back up again. And that, that really hurts my feelings. And you would be like, Oh, I thought we were finished. Like, what do you mean you were finished? Like, we never resolved anything. You're like, Oh, well, you stopped talking about it. So I thought, I thought it was fine. We had to learn how to work together. I both needed to accept it. When he was direct with me, like, if, if a neurotypical man is angry and you're having an argument, and he, like, frustratingly and angrily says, what do you want from me? He is not actually asking you for anything. what you want from him. He is expressing frustration. He's usually trying to avoid accountability. It is something that people say when they're angry to kind of place a blame on the other person. When Kay says, what do you want from me? He is actually asking what exactly do I want? And the first time I realized that it was just like a light bulb went off because I told him and he. just started negotiating with me. He's like, well, I don't know if I can do that, but what if we do this? We actually negotiated in a way that I've just never done in my life, where I told him what I wanted. And then he told me what he was willing to give. And then we worked out together how that was going to work.

K:

Yeah. Somehow being very direct and saying what I mean is more confusing to you than lying. Well,

Chloe:

it's because No, no one else does it this way, right? It's, it's so, it's so rare. But then at the same time, I needed to be direct with him. I needed to, to tell him, Hey, you are hurting my feelings right now, and I need you to rephrase what you're saying. The way that I would express that he was hurting my feelings is I would start to cry or I would storm away. There are just so many complexities and how we communicate, right? So. I had to learn how to say, I want you to talk to me about this in a sincere way, and I don't want you to feel like you were only having this conversation with me because I am forcing you to. I want to feel like my feelings about this matter to you. That is what I need from you. And. It's just incredibly effective because almost always his answer is they do matter. I'm just angry or I'm just frustrated or I'm just hurt and I can't control my tone right now. So I sound frustrated because I am frustrated, but it doesn't mean that I don't care about your feelings. And. It was just really, really good for us to learn how to have those conversations. Another thing that was really helpful for me is not assuming intent.

K:

I would always tell you my words.

Chloe:

Yes. He would say, listen exactly to what I am saying to you, because it's just not something that nerves me. Typical people do. There are layers to conversations, right? There's so much between the lines. And with K, there just isn't. It is very direct. So, for example, if it's something small, like, uh, which movie are we going to watch? I'll say, I want to watch this. And he will be like, well, it's not my first pick, but yeah, it's fine. A lot of women would respond and feel guilty or like, well, what do you want to watch or let me accommodate that. And then eventually you start to feel resentful. We always just do what he wants to do. When in reality, when I watch what he wants to watch, it's not my favorite thing either. I do it because I love him and he's just doing exactly the same thing. He's just expressing it very, very directly. So learning how to be comfortable with him admitting that he doesn't like something was really hard for me. Like hearing him say, I don't want to do this, but I will just made me profoundly uncomfortable for a very long time.

K:

Communication is the most important part of it, right? We, we tell each other, As, as directly as we can, Hey, here's the issue. Here's how I'm feeling. What can we do to fix it? And then we just start trying to figure it out and we failed a lot, right? We, we tried out different methods until, you know, over time it got better and better and better and better as we figured out what works for us and what doesn't work and we continue to improve on it. I think that's just good advice for any part of anyone's life.

Chloe:

Yeah, I agree. I think we're really good at like focusing on this is the problem. How do we work as a team to solve it, right? And sometimes the problem is your behavior. And sometimes it's my behavior. Even if we don't immediately get there, we pretty quickly get to the place of this is a problem for us as a couple. How do we work together to fix it? So you're talking a lot about masking. Can you explain to us what masking is?

K:

For me, masking means it's pretending to do certain social behaviors. Really, it's my overall tone, and inflections, and saying certain things, and, you know, really controlling my emotions. Body movements and emotions in a unnatural way for me to mask as if I am a normie. Normally, I am very monotone. Unless I have some sort of extreme emotion, I'm fairly monotone. You can pick up on my Small inflections now, but the normal people who don't know me, it just sounds very flat. So in the flatness to them sounds like annoyance. So when I'm masking, I have to be sure to throw in inflection and over exaggerate for me to appear like I am a normal person. I have to, specifically make sure that I force inflection in my voice.

Chloe:

When we first started dating, I thought you sounded really monotone, right? Like I had a hard time knowing when you were serious or when you were joking. And I think a lot of our misunderstandings were because I thought You were serious. Do you remember when you had me convinced for like four months that you had a feeder kink?

K:

Yeah. You're just not that perceptive.

Chloe:

I had like serious conversations with my friends. I felt like, I don't know if I can do this. He, he has a feeder kink because I would ask you is, is this real? Do you actually have a feeder kink? And you would say,

K:

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Chloe:

And I, like, I was so into you that I was like, I think I could be fed in like a sexual way. That's, that's fine. I guess it depends on what it is. And then you kept escalating it to like weirder and weirder foods. And then I remember one day I told you, like, I, I, I just don't know if I can do this, like, like this is just not a kink I share and some of the things that you want to do I feel kind of uncomfortable with and you're like, I don't have a feeder kink. It was a joke and it was like, I've experienced six months of turmoil trying to make myself okay with your feeder kink and it's not real.

K:

You never made it clear that you thought it was real.

Chloe:

What? Yes, I, I would ask you directly. Is it real? And you would say,

K:

wait, wait, wait, I think I was, I was playing out a scene from Seinfeld about, Oh

Chloe:

my God, I remember, I remember you told me, Oh my gosh, I remember when I confronted you and you told me you were playing out a scene from Seinfeld and I looked it up and saw that. Oh my gosh. I remember this. What is wrong with you? There's nothing wrong with me. But it's really interesting because now people will come to me like hey, is he angry or is, is, is he upset or, or did I do something wrong? And I'm like, oh no, that's just how he sounds. This is totally normal. And it's actually really difficult for me now. To hear the monotone because I hear so much personality and in your voice, I mean, it just took a little bit of time to get used to, but what I wanted to ask you about with masking is it's pretty controversial, right? And that as we're getting more and more and more research about neurodivergence, we're seeing how detrimental masking can be like, like, Um, It is associated with, like, really intensive burnout, which I have personally witnessed you experience. It increases rates of depression, of anxiety, it can cause PTSD, it increases suicidal ideation. Like, it has really negative effects on people. If you feel like you have to pretend to be someone else in order to be accepted, of course, that's going to have an effect on your mental health. And I, I really wanted to hear what you think about it.

K:

So this is what originally led to me being diagnosed was I would go through depression. You know, I thought maybe it was seasonal affective disorder. So I start going to the therapy and I'm like, Hey, I can't figure out what's wrong with me. I think it's just something biological, you know, a few days a year, a few days, every few months, I just start getting really depressed out of nowhere. And I think I went through one, two, three, it was a fourth therapist who diagnosed me. I went to three therapists. I know you think this is crazy, Chloe, that, but three of them had no idea I was autistic, or at least if they did, they didn't tell me, which I feel like they would. And the fourth one just immediately diagnosed me. And it all just kind of made sense that any time I would mask. For periods of time, depending on how long it was, that would reflect in periods of depression afterwards. So let's say I go to a conference, it's two days of just socializing all day long. I'll be depressed for three, four days afterwards, like difficult to get out of bed. If I go out for a night, It might, might just drain me a little bit the next day. So it was just a very, very clear, direct correlation between amount of time that I was masking slash socializing and then needed recovery time slash had depressive symptoms. effects afterwards.

Chloe:

Yeah. That makes sense. Have you balanced that? Like how, how have you found a way to have the life that you want to have and not be burnt out all the time?

K:

Well, this is why with my previous relationship, I tried to come up with some sort of like, okay, you know, if we do this, I had this much time alone and tried to make it work like that, which honestly wasn't fair to either of us. It's, this isn't something that you can power through. Maybe when I was younger, at this point in my life, you just have to manage it. And the way I think about it is it's a battery and you have to be very smart about when And how you deploy your charge, because when I use too much of it, I know I'm going to be depressed and out of commission for a couple of days or, or more depending on what it is. And the only things I have found to help is well, one, like I said, is Managing and knowing that this will happen if I have to do this two is when I'm in the recovery period Just giving myself that time to recover.

Chloe:

Yeah, that makes sense What are your friendships like right because you you have some friends who are on the spectrum And some of your closest friends are not

K:

Yeah, so most of my friends I would say I met through shared interests and my interests are You Very nerdy. And so naturally. The same type of people who like these interests have similar personality traits. So a lot of people in those circles are varying degrees of autistic, which works out. So I have a lot of friends. And, you know, we just accept each other's quirks. Cause almost everyone, everyone has, has something right. Then with, with the neurotypical people, I don't know, it's weird. I get along best with the very bleeding heart and social worker type. You might have more insight into it and theorize about it probably because they're just very understanding of any Social faux pas and can they can kind of see I am actually a nice guy despite saying or doing some rude things sometimes.

Chloe:

Yeah, I mean, they aren't rude. For me, at least, there was no despite. It was just trying to understand what was happening. Because as soon as you understand that you aren't being rude intentionally, then The vibe changes, right? Like, the, the reason it was difficult for me in the beginning is there are just so many bad people in the world, right? And it was really hard to know, is he gaslighting me? Is, is he doing this on purpose? Is he manipulating me? Is he negging me? Like, what? What is he doing right now? And it's, it's just difficult to know because I, I'm sure a lot of people have had experience with just really manipulative humans who hurt you and pretend like it's an accident. But as soon as I realized, oh, this, this is intentional, this is miscommunication. All of that went away and it was just, how do we communicate? How, how do I understand him better? How do I help him understand me better? How can we have a conversation that's not going to lead to me feeling hurt and him feeling unfairly judged.

K:

Yeah. And part of that is errors in, in masking, right? Even despite the fact that I'm. Very good at masking. I frequently make mistakes, especially when it comes to you and social interactions, and there's groups of people that makes it a lot more, more difficult trying to learn it through a set of rules is, is really, really tough. And we, how many times have we had the conversation where I'm like, okay, so you want me to say this in this situation, if you're having a bad day. Then I can't make this joke anymore,

Chloe:

but, but

K:

if you're having a bad day and I've been nice to you enough earlier in the day, then I can make the bad joke. Right? Like it's, it's just really, that's how I built it out in my head. I have, I have a set of rules that I go by and if it's ever too complicated, I just, I, I, I just don't mess with it. I just make kind of like a, uh, an overriding rule, which is like, never make the bad joke.

Chloe:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's what saved us, right? Like you're in my ability to have those conversations, right? Because whenever we first started dating my reaction, when you would say something that was hurtful was very, I had a very emotional reaction. So how did it, evolve with your neurotypical friends?

K:

You know, I don't even know if I've told most of them, maybe only some of my closest and not because I'm trying to hide it or I don't want to. It's just, it hasn't come up. And the thing is, these, these people have known me for so long. So it's like high

Chloe:

school, right?

K:

Yeah. Yeah. That it would just be a label at this point. They know my quirks, right? Like, like they know, they know how I am. They'll, Oh, they might be like, Oh, Yeah, obviously you're artistic or it makes sense because you you do all these things. So yeah, I think i've had like a couple conversations, but no one's gonna be like, oh my god, right there. It's just

Chloe:

Yeah, i've noticed with a lot of my clients who were on the spectrum like Even though I am a dating consultant, we usually end up kind of going back around to, I struggle making friends too. I really struggle with how to approach them. I feel like I have to mask, and then I start to feel like they don't really know who I am. Like I'm just pretending to be someone. Like I have clients who would spend hours researching hobbies so that they could share hobbies. With with people in order to make friends, which, you know, just just really broke my heart. That's not sustainable, right? Yeah. So how do you do it in a way where you can be yourself? And you can have fulfilling friendships? Does masking have a role in that?

K:

I have a lot to say about this. So feel free to like chime in. I think the most important thing is to Be as true to yourself as you can in terms of overall things you want to do and how you are. When I think of masking, it's not changing my core being. I'm still true to myself. I'm not doing anything where I'm misrepresenting myself. So I guess sometimes, but, but, but it's very small. Most of the time when I'm asking, it's, it's just like going through rituals. I find annoying when you see someone like, Hey, how was your weekend? Oh, good. How was yours? Do anything fun? Everyone knows no one cares, but you have to say them. So I think pretending to do these things and going along with it and pitching my voice to show interest, I don't think that's, that's changing the core of who I am, all that that's doing is I think it was just like a prerequisite to get. Through to the things that I want to do, but going back to the masking and friends and whatnot, I've made my life to have it be. Where I'm doing the things that I enjoy as much as possible. Like the interests I have, the things I, I read the way I spend my time. Those are all things that make me happy and that I enjoy, right? I'm not doing, I don't like sports, right? So when people go to watch football or whatever, or basketball and like, Hey, do you want to come? I say, no, I don't like basketball. And I feel like probably a lot of people, they want to fit in. So they go pretend that they do it. So if you're trying to fit yourself in with that, that crowd, that group of people, you're not going to be happy. So I've found people who. Like the same things that I like and we get along because it happens that the people who like the same things I like have share similar personality traits with me.

Chloe:

How do you have fulfilling relationships that don't burn you out and that aren't unhealthy for you? Yeah,

K:

you've seen, you enjoy my text messages because I'm just very. I'm very direct with them. If they want to do something and, and hang out and do all this stuff, I will just very directly tell them like, Hey, I'll hang out with you for four hours. And after four hours, I'm going home or, you know, we can hang out for, for one night this week, and then after that one night. That's it. So pick what, what night you want. Yeah. And I

Chloe:

love that about you because you do it with such confidence that people don't question it, right? Like you are just a very direct and probably the first time that you do it, they are shocked, but then it just becomes a part of who you are. I'm always just so impressed with how. Direct you're able to be because I would have worried myself sick that I was going to hurt their feelings, right? Like I worry far too much about how I'm going to be perceived and what people are going to think about me and you're just completely direct. And then it's, it's really helped me be, I think, a more confident person because I also see the reaction to you. You tell them what your boundaries are and if they want to be in your life, they respect them. And then that's just the end of the conversation,

K:

right? Because. And, and I feel it's very reasonable too, because I don't think anyone's feelings should be hurt because I straight up tell them, you know, it's not, I want to hang out with you. Right. I enjoy hanging out with you, but I just need this time to myself. So here's what, what works for me. And I want to spend it with you. And, you know, it I actually don't think I've ever had a bad reaction, or maybe I missed the cues on it, but it works really well for me.

Chloe:

I've never seen it go poorly for you at all. And there are some times when, like, you will have a conversation, and it's usually for work. Like, sometimes you'll ask for my help with social work things, where you'll have a conversation and ask how it went, and then we'll talk about, you know, Well, I noticed that maybe you weren't able to see, but when it comes to you just being really direct with your friends or people in your life, I have never seen a bad reaction and it's genuinely helped me to a point that the people in my life have noticed. And I, like, I've been told. That I, it like, it means so, I feel like emotional about it. Like you have made my life so much better. I have created boundaries with toxic people in my life. It's so freeing. Like, I feel like you have helped me. I wouldn't even say just like a better person, but I'm a happier person with you because I no longer stress out with you. I love you. I mean, if you imagine who I was when I first started dating and who I am now, the relationships I would have, I would come to crying and you would just be like, they're treating you really poorly. Why are you worried about how to please them? And I reached a place where I genuinely did. Just don't care if they can't respect my boundaries and they can't be my life. And that is something you have taught me that has had the biggest impact on my life, but I think anything has given me and my entire adulthood.

K:

People think it's selfish, but it's not selfish to have boundaries. I know what I need to be happy. Right. And it's not even, and sometimes, you know, I'll, I'll bend my, my boundaries. I'll do something I don't want to do to make someone else happier, but usually it's, it's family, you know, like, like I'll, I'll suffer a little bit. Most of the time you set what's reasonable and. Even with your friends, it's a relationship, right? You give and you take and it works out when, when everyone has, is, is good hearted, is, has good intentions.

Chloe:

And you can set boundaries in a nice way, right? Like there may be people who, no matter how you articulate it, they perceive you setting a boundary as you insulting them. But those people are not capable of being in a healthy relationship with you.

K:

The other thing I think is, actually you saw this come up recently, where, you know, sometimes either my, my masking isn't good enough, or they're, they're not picking up what I'm putting down, and they're not getting my signals to stop talking about this, or I don't want to talk about this anymore. It comes up a lot with, with my parents. You know, I just started being very. Direct with them. And I do this in all the relationships if I need to write you, you start a slow escalation. So with my parents specifically, they were asking me questions about something that I didn't want to talk about. And I started just giving like very short and what I thought were like cold responses and they just were not listening. They, they just kept asking, asking. And after like the second or third question, I just said to them very directly, Hey, when you guys asked me about this, It stresses me out. I don't want to talk about it. Can you stop asking me? And they stopped.

Chloe:

And, and they still loved you at the end of that phone call. Right. And they, and they still called you the next day and they still wanted to support you and be there for you. And it's, it's, it's just, you know, it feels very obvious that people who love you aren't going to stop loving you. If you say, Hey, I don't like it when you do this. But I think for a lot of people, especially women, it's just so pounded into us that if you don't comply with what someone wants, then they're not going to want you around anymore. And it's just crazy. It's crazy. I wasted so much of my life, like bending myself over backwards for people who didn't need me to do that. Right. And the people who didn't need me to do that, why did I let them stay in my life? Right.

K:

I don't know. I

Chloe:

know since I've been with you. I think it's fair to say that the people who I communicated with every day has dropped by almost half, and on the surface that may seem Like a negative thing, but I just had a lot of relationships that were really unfair to me. And now I have more time for the relationships that are fulfilling and that are reciprocated and that are genuine. So I'm spending the same amount of time with the people that I love. Like I just have this list of names in my head of all of these people who I used to worry about and stress out about. Call them

K:

out. Call them out. Name and shame.

Chloe:

I would like, do you remember how much of our time was spent in our early days of me crying to you about various people? And I don't know what to do and why are they treating me this way? And, and what can I do to make them happy again? And, and that just isn't really something that we talk about anymore.

K:

Yeah. That's wonderful. I mean, really this was all for selfish reasons. I just got tired of listening to it.

Chloe:

I mean, it worked out really well for you.

K:

Chloe, you know, I know a lot about myself and I know you have a lot of clients who are autistic. What is my experience like compared to what's out there?

Chloe:

Well, I, I have a master's degree in clinical social work, right? So I have a therapy history, but that helped me with how to work on relationship issues. But what I found is a lot of my clients are neurodivergent and As Advice by Chloe has grown, I've also had this influx of people who have been working with who didn't respond as well to the techniques that I was using. So, I made a lot of changes in the past years, and I mean, being, being with you has been incredibly helpful, but I base everything on you. that I do off of data. I'm just a very data driven person. I'm a clinician. Everything a good therapist does is evidence based, right? Like you, you, you can't have a client and just tell them to try something that you feel like maybe will work, right? That is how it works. I do a tremendous amount of research and what's really heartbreaking is the number of clients I have had who come to me as a last resort and they're like, Hey, I've never had a girlfriend and I've never, I've never kissed anyone. And I am so lonely and I don't know what to do. I think there must be something very, very wrong with me, but I can't And it just broke my heart. And at the time, I didn't really have any services to accommodate that. So I started doing a lot of research into how do I help these people? There are so many studies that show over and over and over again that people with ASD really struggle in relationships. There was. The study in 2018 that showed that 80 percent of men with ASD desire romantic relationships, but almost 70 percent of them really struggle to obtain them.

K:

Geez.

Chloe:

It's just crazy. And then there was another study that showed that only 32 percent of men on the spectrum have been in a relationship that lasts longer than a year. And then I found this 2020 study that showed that 64 percent of men on the spectrum who they interviewed had never been in a romantic relationship at all, as compared to 10 percent of the neurotypical people that they interviewed in the same age group. So people who are neurodivergent desire relationships. They're struggling to obtain them. Once they have them, they struggle to keep them. And they are delayed in terms of what they want. the age they are at when they start to experience those relationships. And, you know, I felt really, I feel really ashamed admitting this because I am a clinician and I work with people on the spectrum every single day. And my best friend is on the spectrum. But when I first met Kay, I had a heart to heart with my closest friends. And I was like, Hey, I really like this guy. But I don't think that I can be with him. Like, I don't, I don't know how to be with him. I don't understand him and I don't know how to communicate with him. And I don't think he knows how to communicate with me. And all I know is that every time I talk to him, I like him more. And every time I talk to him, I walk away and my feelings are really hurt. I just felt really powerless. Looking back at that now, we were so close, Kay, to breaking up, like, so close.

K:

I know. There were quite a few moments. Well, I'm really glad that you, you stuck it out and you helped me learn and understand each other and communicate. And, you know, now it's We are where we are. So

Chloe:

I'm, I'm really glad that you helped me like, and it really like hurts me to think about, I was almost another person who didn't give you a chance, who thought you were rude and just walked away. It just haunts me. I feel emotional just thinking about it because you are wonderful. Right. And then I think about my clients. I have clients that I've worked with for years. And. And many of them I have very close relationships with and I care about them and I can see how wonderful they are and I watch them go on day after day after day and I can see it hurting them, I can see it causing them pain, I can see them deflating and feeling frustrated. It's really disappointing to me that there's so little education, right, because when you and I figured out how to do this. I took that information and I built it into a program. You know, humans tend to treat social skills like they're innate. We treat it as though social skills are just something that you have or you don't have. We don't treat it like it's something that you learn. But it is. Every social skill that humans have, we learned. But for neurotypicals, We started learning those skills as infants. We learned how to interact with the world because the world was built for our brains. But for people who are neurodivergent, the world wasn't built to accommodate their brains. And then up until pretty recently, autism was very underdiagnosed. Even when it was diagnosed, there wasn't a lot of help. And so now these people are adults. And no one ever taught them these social skills, right? And, and it's not that they can't learn them. It's that they need to learn them a little bit differently. And it takes time and effort to figure out, okay, how does your brain need to process this? What are your needs? What are your struggles? And so that's what I do. And it's been incredibly fulfilling to watch my clients go from having never been on a date to being in healthy relationships. And this isn't an ad for advice by Chloe. It's, it's just, it's so meaningful to me and it's so important to me. And since I met Kay, it's felt very personal to me because now I love someone. Who I feel is really undervalued for a really long time and it makes me angry and it makes me sad and I want to just fight a bunch of people. Right? Like, I have a list of people who I want to give a knuckle sandwich to. And it makes me angry, you know, when, when, when you're in meetings and, and, and I can see you struggle, I can see you recognize this isn't going great, but I don't know what's wrong and like I can see that look in your eyes and I can see that confusion and I can see that frustration and it wrecks me because you try so hard, you try harder than most people and you try all the time. And I just wanted to make this podcast and I wanted you to be my co host because I wanted people to see what this looks like, you know, like what, what a relationship looks like when two people have very different brains, right? But they figure out how to make it work and they love each other. And. They're largely healthy, right? And the parts that aren't healthy, they work through. And I think it, it's really valuable to have something like this, where I'm very neurotypical and I'm very psychology based and I'm very clinical and I'm also very emotional and sensitive. And K is very, very logic forward. And he is neurodivergent, and so we can talk about things like love and relationships and mental health in a way that I feel accommodates a much wider spectrum of humans than if it was just one or the other of us.

K:

That's really sweet. I love you.

Chloe:

I love you. I'm really excited. I think this is going to be fun. Most of our episodes are not going to be focused on our relationships. But we're going to be talking about what dating and relationship looks like no matter what part of this human spectrum you're on. How to navigate dating apps, how to navigate dates, how to navigate relationships, how to figure out what kind of relationship you're looking for. And I am, I'm really really excited to do it with my best friend. That's you. I love you. I love you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Chloe Gray

Host
Head Shot

K

Co-host